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Post by zeeshan on May 12, 2016 17:26:53 GMT
I went through the articles by Brother Bassam and I believe the issue is straightforward, if one wants to approach Hadith differently and do some form of content criticism, then they are free to do so but do not hide behind the Hanafi school or any other school for that matter.
One mistake in some of the articles is the brother quotes from Fatawa al-Nawazil which is falsely ascribed to Abu al-Layth al-Samarqandi (by the editor Yusuf Ahmad), the actual author is al-Marghinani and the books name is Mukhtarat al-Nawazil (see Sh Lu'ayy al-Khalili's 'Asbab 'Udul al-Hanafiyya 'an al-Futya bi Dhahir al-Riwaya', p.280-281). It does not impact the argument in anyway though
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Post by zeeshan on May 16, 2016 10:13:55 GMT
Another rather bizarre article was shown to me written by Atabek Shukrov where he highlights Abu Mansur al-Maturidi's rejection of the Hadith in regards to Musa (as), see shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2016/05/08/the-truth-about-the-study-quran-part-2-al-maturidi-and-who-are-the-theological-modernists/This cherry picking of quotes to push a certain narrative seems to have become an unfortunate habit for him (Bassam's above articles demonstrate this). But there is no doubt Maturidi does reject the Hadith based on content criticism and similar examples can be found from other Ulama. The point of contention is his continuous dichotomy that is being presented of the Muhaddithin vs. the Hanafis. On this very Hadith (like the case of the black magic Hadith which is yet to be responded to) Abu Ja'far al-Tahawi accepts it. By Shukrov's own admission 'Imam Tahawi another genuinely authoritative and genuinely early Hanafi scholar from the fourth century (as opposed to the handpicked, novel and ‘cross party’ groups of scholars served up to a vulnerable Muslim public by those demanding blasphemy killing)' see shaykhatabekshukurov.com/al-Tahawi states 67 - حَدَّثَنَا إبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ مَرْزُوقٍ، حَدَّثَنَا رَوْحُ بْنِ عُبَادَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَوْفٌ الْأَعْرَابِيُّ، عَنِ ابْنِ سِيرِينَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، فِي هَذِهِ الْآيَةِ: {لَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ آذَوْا مُوسَى} [الأحزاب: 69] الْآيَةَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ: " إنَّ مُوسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ كَانَ رَجُلًا حَيِيًّا سِتِّيرًا لَا يَكَادُ أَنْ يُرَى مِنْ جِلْدِهِ شَيْءٌ اسْتِحْيَاءً مِنْهُ فَآذَاهُ مَنْ آذَاهُ مِنْ بَنِي إسْرَائِيلَ وَقَالُوا: مَا يَسْتَتِرُ هَذَا التَّسَتُّرَ إلَّا مِنْ عَيْبٍ بِجِلْدِهِ إمَّا بَرَصٍ وَإِمَّا أَدَرَةٍ " هَكَذَا قَالَ لَنَا إبْرَاهِيمُ فِي حَدِيثِهِ وَأَهْلُ اللُّغَةِ يُخَالِفُونَهُ فِي ذَلِكَ وَيَقُولُونَ: إنَّهَا أُدْرَةٌ ; لِأَنَّهَا آدَرٌ بِمَعْنَى آدَمَ فَمِنْهَا بِالْإِضَافَةِ [ص:68] إلَيْهَا أُدْرَةٌ وَإِمَّا آفَةٌ " وَإِنَّ اللهَ تَعَالَى أَرَادَ أَنْ يُبَرِّئَهُ مِمَّا قَالُوا وَإِنَّ مُوسَى خَلَا يَوْمًا وَحْدَهُ فَوَضَعَ ثَوْبَهُ عَلَى حَجَرٍ , ثُمَّ اغْتَسَلَ فَلَمَّا فَرَغَ مِنْ غُسْلِهِ أَقْبَلَ إلَى ثَوْبِهِ لِيَأْخُذَهُ , وَإِنَّ الْحَجَرَ عَدَا بِثَوْبِهِ فَأَخَذَ مُوسَى عَصَاهُ وَطَلَبَ الْحَجَرَ وَجَعَلَ يَقُولُ: ثَوْبِي حَجَرٌ ثَوْبِي حَجَرٌ إلَى أَنِ انْتَهَى إلَى مَلَإِ بَنِي إسْرَائِيلَ فَرَأَوْهُ عُرْيَانًا كَأَحْسَنِ الرِّجَالِ خَلْقًا فَبَرَّأَهُ اللهُ مِمَّا قَالُوا , وَإِنَّ الْحَجَرَ قَامَ , فَأَخَذَ ثَوْبَهُ فَلَبِسَهُ فَطَفِقَ بِالْحَجَرِ ضَرْبًا قَالَ فَوَاللهِ إنَّ فِي الْحَجَرِ لَنَدَبًا مِنْ أَثَرِ ضَرْبِهِ ثَلَاثًا أَوْ أَرْبَعًا أَوْ خَمْسًا " فَهَذَا مَا رُوِيَ فِي هَذَا الْمَعْنَى عَنْ رَسُولِ اللهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ. وَأَمَّا مَا قَدْ رُوِيَ عَنْ عَلِيٍّ فِي ذَلِكَ مِمَّا نُحِيطُ عِلْمًا أَنَّهُ لَمْ يَقُلْهُ إلَّا بِأَخْذِهِ إيَّاهُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ; لِأَنَّ فِيهِ إخْبَارَهُ أَنَّ اللهَ تَعَالَى عَنَى مَا ذَكَرَهُ فِيهِ , وَذَلِكَ شَهَادَةٌ مِنْهُ عَلَى اللهِ بِهِ وَلَا يَسَعُهُ ذَلِكَ إلَّا بِأَخْذِهِ إيَّاهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ ذَكَرْنَا كَمَا حَدَّثَنَا إبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ أَبِي دَاوُدَ , حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ الْوَاسِطِيُّ , عَنْ عَبَّادِ بْنِ الْعَوَّامِ , عَنْ سُفْيَانَ بْنِ حُسَيْنٍ , عَنِ الْحَكَمِ , عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ , عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ , عَنْ عَلِيٍّ: {لَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ آذَوْا مُوسَى} [الأحزاب: 69] قَالَ: " صَعِدَ مُوسَى وَهَارُونُ الْجَبَلَ فَمَاتَ هَارُونُ فَقَالَ بَنُو إسْرَائِيلَ: أَنْتَ قَتَلْتَهُ كَانَ أَلْيَنَ [ص:69] لَنَا مِنْكَ وَأَشَدَّ حَيَاءً فَآذَوْهُ فِي ذَلِكَ فَأَمَرَ اللهُ تَعَالَى الْمَلَائِكَةَ فَحَمَلَتْهُ وَتَكَلَّمَتْ بِمَوْتِهِ حَتَّى عَرَفَتْ بَنُو إسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ قَدْ مَاتَ فَدَفَنُوهُ فَلَمْ يَعْرِفْ مَوْضِعَ قَبْرِهِ إلَّا الرَّخَمُ , فَإِنَّ اللهَ جَعَلَهُ أَبْكَمَ أَصَمَّ ". قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ: وَكَانَ مَنْ لَا عِلْمَ عِنْدَهُ مِمَّنْ وَقَفَ عَلَى هَذَيْنِ الْحَدِيثَيْنِ يَرَى أَنَّهُمَا مُتَضَادَّانِ وَحَاشَا لِلَّهِ أَنْ يَكُونَا كَذَلِكَ ; لِأَنَّهُ قَدْ يَجُوزُ أَنْ تَكُونَ بَنُو إسْرَائِيلَ آذَتْ مُوسَى مِمَّا ذَكَرَ مِمَّا كَانَ مِمَّا آذَتْهُ بِهِ فِي كُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِنَ الْحَدِيثَيْنِ حَتَّى بَرَّأَهُ اللهُ مِنْ ذَلِكَ بِمَا بَرَّأَهُ بِهِ مِنْ ذَلِكَ مِمَّا هُوَ مَذْكُورٌ فِي هَذَيْنِ الْحَدِيثَيْنِ Now he is welcome to take the stance of Maturidi but this accusation 'In the case of this hadith – and many others, we see a game by groups like Salafis and Deobandis of trying to play off the early group of scholars with a more recent cohort that agrees with their preferred, usually ‘gotta’ accept them all’ methodology. The classic example is to claim that well, maybe some early Hanafis believed that this hadith is false but later on other Hanafis fell into line with the hadith collectors'. Here we have demonstrated that a contemporary of Maturidi, Tahawi had accepted the Hadith.
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Post by DarulTahqiq on May 16, 2016 10:26:31 GMT
Who needs to respond? There is a radd to Atabek on this in print.
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Post by zeeshan on May 16, 2016 11:13:16 GMT
Who needs to respond? There is a radd to Atabek on this in print.
Atabek has not responded to the fact that al-Tahawi accepted the Hadith of black magic which I mentioned last year and since then has been brought up a number of times.
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Post by muslimanswers on May 21, 2016 18:31:47 GMT
Salam Alaykum, I know this might seem a little far from the topic, but I feel it is an 'application' of these supposedly 'Hanafi principles': A certain issue came up on my site, with respect to the miracle of the splitting of the moon, whether it is literally true or a metaphor subjectively described by the Companions. The link starts from: muslimanswers.net/2015/04/13/question-does-islams-emphasis-on-reality-not-show-our-disdain-for-how-different-people-perceive-things/comment-page-1/#comment-16437You can make out very easily that the last response of the questioner includes a comment from "Shaykh Atabek's Group" - no overt disrespect intended, but it is obvious how his students would respond and present matters. What would you say on top of what I have mentioned in my replies? Thank you Wa Salam.
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